Saturday, December 15, 2007

A thought and a quorum call

Here is a quick thought about why I do no believe in any gods or goddesses or any supernatural being:

1. Anything that fails to provide observable proof of its existence can not be proven to exist.
2. Reality is that which can be observed and that which can be proven.
3. Any metaphysical construct that elevates faith over observation elevates unreality over reality.
4. Religious metaphysics upholds faith over observation.
5. Religious metaphysics upholds the unreal over the real.
6. Religious metaphysics require the existence of a god.
7. The existence of a god is unreal.

This is just a thought. It's not a fully reasoned proof and I'm curious to get thoughts on it.

Also, if anyone is reading this, are you from the Muncie area? I'm looking to find or start a group of atheists/freethinkers in this area. People to jaw around with about ideas both high and mundane. Let me know.

95 comments:

PhillyChief said...

Alright, let me play god's advocate.

The counter arguments to 1 & 2 usually include the limitations of our perceptions as well as our lack of observation of most of the universe. Desouza uses the latter often to imply science is based on faith since today we don't know if the speed of light is indeed constant everywhere since we haven't been everywhere to check. Other arguments would include how there was a time when we didn't know bacteria and other microorganisms existed, that atoms or their particles existed, or even that the Western Hemisphere existed. Just as we discovered those things, so to may we discover god.

They sound silly but are not so easy to dismiss. The replies need to be long to explain the flaws in that thinking plus, in Desouza's issue, involves the admission that "we can't know absolutely, but...". Both replies usually are inadequate if you're dealing with an audience of believers or belief sympathetic people. The fact that these arguments are short, sweet, and cute and require both lengthy answers to refute and the above admission is why they use them.

I would recommend checking out IronChariots.org which is a wiki set up by the Atheist Community of Austin. It contains many theist arguments and their counter arguments. They also have two excellent podcasts that you can get from their site, through Apple store for itunes and on Google video. I think they also are setting up a list of groups in other areas as well as being willing to offer assistance to people looking to start groups in other areas (I saw you were looking to do that). Infidels.org is another resource.

Just Another Atheist said...

Thanks for the thoughts, Phillychief. I'm by no means a professional philospher. I also don't have much of an atheist community in the area I'm from so I don't get a lot of opportunities to bounce my ideas off of people. I'll check out the sites you listed and try to figure out if there are ways around the limitations of 1 and 2. Thanks so much for the comment!

PhillyChief said...

I have some links to some sites, mostly blogs, on my site. I may have to add more resource links. I hadn't really thought before about how such things might be useful to others, so thank you for making me realize that just now.

hmmmm said...

So I've read your posts and now have questions/comments.

Are you afraid of dying? You say you now hold on to the love of living instead of the fear of death. But are you still afraid of dying? Are you afraid of what's to come after the heart stops pumping?

I understand your transformation from not knowing what may be in the after-life (or thinking you do know what will be there) to there may be no after-life at all, at least I assume you don't think there is an after-life anymore as an atheist.

Hmmm, what an interesting topic. Do atheist believe in a type of after-life?

Anyways, back to my questions. You need proof to believe in God or gods. What kind of proof do you need to believe? How much proof to make you believe, or how little to make you not believe?

What kind of proof do you need? What about proof that has yet to come. For example, if you lived in the 1700's could you not believe in space travel? There was no proof that space travel could exist, even though it does exist today. There may be no proof that God or gods exist today, but there may be proof in the future.

Hmmmm, more to come.

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First off, thank you hmmmm for lending an example of what I said would be a theist counter argument.

To address the space flight issue, true, no one 300 years ago could have had a reason to believe humans would fly in space. No person today would think ill of those 16th century people for not believing in space flight, and certainly no person would say they deserve to be punished for such a "failing"; however, most religions preach that we who are without evidence for these gods and therefore refuse to believe in their existence should be punished eternally for such a "failing". That seems not only an extreme overreaction but highly hypocritical. If tomorrow or some future day some evidence comes along for the existence of your god, fine, we'll al have to accept it's existence but until that day comes, the atheist position seems to be the most reasonable position.

As for the afterlife thing, I think most atheists don't accept there is one. The root of atheism is skepticism, and the idea of an afterlife seems pretty dubious. As for the fear of dying, I'd say anyone who needs a belief in an afterlife has the fear of dying. That's obvious, since you clearly can't accept your eventual demise.

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